There were definately prophecies that didn't come about. Everyone already explained about disasters, wars, plagues and so on. As for other prophecies, it's easy to make a prophecy after something happens.
Benjamin Belial
JoinedPosts by Benjamin Belial
-
13
Is this a valid point about Bible prophecies?
by apple78 inok, forgive me if this sounds silly but it came to me today.
people keep talking about the earth and its disasters and the fulfilling of prophecies and end times.
but is there a counter argument to these prophecies?
-
-
-
-
-
Benjamin Belial
What I meant about Crowley was that he isn't some sort of "cult" figure for most wiccans I've met. ;
That explains why I said, and later explained again, that most Wiccans dislike him despite the fact that he influenced their religion. I never once said they saw him as a cult figure. I said the exact opposite.
Are you pagan? ; ; I don't pretend to practice ceremonial magic because I think there is a big distinction between that and simple "energy work" type things.
Again, I already said I was a Pagan and had my own church at www.churchofpaganunity.org. It's down now as I no longer believe. But yes, I was one, and studied Paganism of all types.
-
-
-
Benjamin Belial
I was initiated as Wiccan, but I don't use that word to now describe my belief system. ; I think that you have made many good points, however, be careful of generalising. ; As a wiccan a few years ago, even I didn't accept certain things which you seem to think "wiccans" do. ; Also, I didn't see any hint of "superiority" in the wiccan movement. ;
I see it constantly. One Wiccan I knew in person literally turned her nose up and sneered when I mentioned ceremonial magic... yet that is what she practices. Watered-down ceremonial magic. Ceremonial magic for dummies.
Perhaps I was lucky. ; ; As for Crowley, he didn't feature in anything except perhaps his correspondences in 777.
Well, aside from training Gardener, but who cares? Oh right, and the "Wiccan Rede" was taken from Crowley's Law. But uh, yeah, no real influence to speak of. Heh.
-
-
-
Benjamin Belial
Benjamin, I'm not going to argue semantics, I don't call her "the goddess" either, I used that term to indicate the femine as opposed to the masculine. ; I actually call her Mother, and I really don't care if anyone else ever did or ever will again. ; Thats the beauty of my path, its just that!
You're not going to argue semantics, yet you've been doing just that. I'm not going to argue semantics either because I'm correct on the issue, and any book of Wicca will tell you just that. The only person who says otherwise is dumbass Ravenwolf, and she's a joke of the highest order. Only a true idiot could claim love spells are evil while releasing do-it-yourself love spell kits, or write something as assinine as ":If you make a mistake during ritual, no biggie." Wow, instill in them early that mistakes in rituals are "no biggie." Not to mention teaching kids how to lie to their parents by saying they're praying to "angels."
So Ravenwolf hatred aside, no respected Wiccan author will deny that what I'm saying is correct. I don't care what you call it, my statement was that Wicca was a recent invention and that the God and Goddess terminology is a recent invention. Until you can dispute that, this argument truly IS over.
-
-
-
Benjamin Belial
Are you saying that Pagans didn't believe in "the goddess" until the last century? Because I'm sure you cannot be saying that there have not been cults who worshipped various goddesses (some would say various facets of "the goddess") for hundreds, if not thousands of years?
I have trouble believing that your constant misreading of my posts is not intentional. There's no possible way you could keep misunderstanding everything I say, because I know I'm not THAT vague.
Did I or did I not say that religions traditionally had a goddess figure? Didn't I say most religions had a god/goddess dark/light principle? And you're asking me if I believe they had a goddess figure? Can I actually be ANY more clear on my opinion on this?
I said that the generic terms "god" and "goddess" and "lord" and "lady" are modern terms. No ancient people referred to "the god" and "the goddess." Those are recent creations so that Wicca can be taught while people can still use their individual names and images for those gods. But no ancient people said "This is a temple to THE GODDESS." It wasn't like that.
Am I being clear now?
-
-
-
Benjamin Belial
Benjamin, my bad, I thought I had read pagan, lots of folks use those interchangeably anymore, such as Xerox machine means copier in a generic sense and not a brand except to the company!
I understand. Just so long as you see what I'm saying now. I studied Paganism for a long time... actually I studied all religion... and was a Pagan for a good while, though in the past couple months I've lost belief in gods, more or less. Maybe it's just a phase due to how wrecked my life has become, and the fact that they've never been there for me. Basically, I can say they don't exist because for me they don't. Maybe for someone else they do. But I can hardly keep my plans for a church with this mentality, which is why I closed it.
Your message was cryptic, but we now get your point. ; In fact I probably get it better than most in that I have run into wiccans such as you describe. IMO anyone who tries to tell you they have the only way is selling snake oil.
It's not that Wiccans believe they have the only path, it's that they act superior, like they have the best one, and I see it as oversimplified ceremonial magic. If I was interested in any of that for myself, I would explore ceremonial magic and the Kabbalah, and not Gardener's watered down version.
As to the goddess, I believe she was around a lot longer than the bible, at least archeology bears this out (as in "When God Was a Woman" and "The Chalice and the Blade".) ; However, I am not advocating anyone else believe in her, just that I do.
Let me clarify: no religion called it "the goddess." Yes there were male and female, dark and light principles. But it wasn't until modern Wicca that they started genericizing it into "the god" and "the goddess" or "the lord" and "the lady." YEs, that goddess figure existed, but it didn't go by "the goddess."
-
-
-
Benjamin Belial
Though many of the original witches did worship Satan, as did many Wiccans and witches up until the point that LaVey totally embarassed the movement, but you'll rarely find a modern Wiccan who will admit this.
-
-
-
Benjamin Belial
Most pagans don't believe in the three-fold law. ; Some do. ; Most do believe in this law: ; If it harms none, do what thou will. ; That has no cause and effect involved. ; Some pagans do believe in karma, I do, for instance, but its a very controversial belief within pagans and hotly debated whether it "belongs." ; As to Crowley, he was the person that brought wicca or paganism to the attention of the public, but I would not say that he is any messiah. ; Not all pagans even hold to the god and goddess (essential to his belief). ; As a Dianic pagan I hold to the goddess. ; Pagans in general are very tolerant people (not all). ; We don't recruit (proseletyze) nor do we try to tell others what to believe.
As a Pagan I don't see a need for your history lesson, but thanks.
Nice strawman argument. I never said most Pagans believe in the three-fold law. I said most Wiccans do. You're debating like if someone says Catholics believe something, then all Christians do. I never said that. I said Wiccans, not Pagans.
And again, for like the fifth time, I didn't say Crowley was a messiah or a Wiccan. Crowley was one of the people who trained Gardener. Gardener learned from Crowley and took rituals from the Golden Dawn and so forth, watered them down, and made them much more simplistic.
Yeah, I know Pagans don't all believe in "the goddess" because it's more stuff somebody invented. There was no "the goddess" until the last century. I never believed in "the goddess."
So enough with the history lessons. I'm not stupid or uneducated in this area of knowledge.
I fail to see the connection with christianity. ; It seems the only vague connection is a belief in a higher power. ; As a stretch you could say that christians are wannabe pagans, so many of their beliefs (including many found in the bible) have pagan origins.
Yeah, I kind of said that too. How is it that so many people totally missed the entire point of my post so completely?
Let me dumb it down for you, okay?
Christians - took beliefs from the Pagans. Dislike/hate Pagans. Acts superior to everyone else. Try to be really moral but do the same dumb stuff everyone else does or worse.
Wiccans - took beliefs and rituals from Golden Dawn, OTO, Crowley, etc, but in general dislike ceremonial magic and Crowley(in fact, tend to act scared of him). Also tend to act superior(and this is from personal experience, almost every Wiccan I've met has acted arrogant and superior). Try to be more liberal and openminded than Christians, yet are held back by the same sense of morality most of the time.
You can dispute this all you want, but I've been there, I've seen it. I was building my own Pagan church. I still have the web domain www.churchofpaganunity.org which I gave up on for various reasons. I can give you a link to the original site and you can see what I wrote on the page, the Kemetic flowchart I created, and so on. Kemetic because that's what I was, a Kemetic. (Oh no, a Kemetic judging Wiccans!)
Does any of this make sense yet or do I have to keep explaining?
-
-
-
Benjamin Belial
Gretchen called you on it, and as a practicing pagan she probably has half a clue...
I've been a practicing Pagan for years. What's your point again?
While you claim that most of them frown on Crowley, you attempt to make a case that their beliefs are based upon his work. ; You would also appear to support his work by your caricaturisation of the "three-fold law morality". ; Not many are free-luvvin satanists (meant in a totally non-perjorative sense).
Uh... who trained Gardener again?
-
-
-
Benjamin Belial
You ARE wrong. ; Most Wiccans have nothing at all to do with Crowley.
Wow, once again someone corrected me by not disagreeing with me. Incredible how you managed to read my post and miss the entire point.